A request for release engineering

[Manish Jain]

Hi,

I have no idea whether this is the right list to make this request to.
But I could not find any other list that would definitely be better suited.

I noticed when trying to build a port under my 10.3 box that support for
10.3 has now expired. I have no problems with that - I will install 12
afresh when it becomes available later this year.

But since installing afresh demands a whole effort, I request that
FreeBSD reduce its new releases to one per year, while the support
period is increased to 3 years per release.

Does this sound like a good request to others too ?

[Steve O'Hara-Smith]

On Thu, 10 May 2018 23:45:02 +0530

Post by Manish Jain
But since installing afresh demands a whole effort, I request that
FreeBSD reduce its new releases to one per year, while the support
period is increased to 3 years per release.
Does this sound like a good request to others too ?

To be completely honest I would prefer that the development and
release engineering teams run at a cadence that suits them (which AFAIK
they do).

I've never needed to re-install just to move up a major version
bump, I do wipe the packages and re-install them but that's not too
painful. I usually jump versions around the n.1 release upgrading in
reverse order of importance since it's a home setup with no staging
environment to test in.

[Arthur Chance]

Post by Manish Jain
Hi,
I have no idea whether this is the right list to make this request to.
But I could not find any other list that would definitely be better suited.
I noticed when trying to build a port under my 10.3 box that support for
10.3 has now expired. I have no problems with that - I will install 12
afresh when it becomes available later this year.
But since installing afresh demands a whole effort, I request that
FreeBSD reduce its new releases to one per year, while the support
period is increased to 3 years per release.
Does this sound like a good request to others too ?

The FreeBSD support model was announced over three years ago:

https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-announce/2015-February/001624.html

In particular

- Each new release from the stable/X branch deprecates the previous
release on the branch, providing a three-month window within which
consumers are urged to upgrade to the latest release. During this
three-month window, Security Advisories and Errata Notices will still
be issued for the previous release, as necessary.

Why not simply update to 10.4?

[Kristof Provost]

Post by Arthur Chance

Post by Manish Jain
Hi,
I have no idea whether this is the right list to make this request to.
But I could not find any other list that would definitely be better suited.
I noticed when trying to build a port under my 10.3 box that support for
10.3 has now expired. I have no problems with that - I will install 12
afresh when it becomes available later this year.
But since installing afresh demands a whole effort, I request that
FreeBSD reduce its new releases to one per year, while the support
period is increased to 3 years per release.
Does this sound like a good request to others too ?

https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-announce/2015-February/001624.html
In particular
- Each new release from the stable/X branch deprecates the previous
release on the branch, providing a three-month window within which
consumers are urged to upgrade to the latest release. During this
three-month window, Security Advisories and Errata Notices will still
be issued for the previous release, as necessary.
Why not simply update to 10.4?

FreeBSD 10.4 reaches end-of-life on October 31, 2018. At this point
I’d recommend an upgrade to 11.1 right now, to get to a supported
version and then an upgrade to 11.2 within three months of the release
of 11.2.
There should be very few surprised in the upgrade from 10.3 to 11.1 and
none in the 11.1 to 11.2 upgrade.

Regards,
Kristof

[Matthew Seaman]

Post by Arthur Chance

Post by Manish Jain
Hi,
I have no idea whether this is the right list to make this request to.
But I could not find any other list that would definitely be better suited.
I noticed when trying to build a port under my 10.3 box that support for
10.3 has now expired. I have no problems with that - I will install 12
afresh when it becomes available later this year.
But since installing afresh demands a whole effort, I request that
FreeBSD reduce its new releases to one per year, while the support
period is increased to 3 years per release.
Does this sound like a good request to others too ?

https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-announce/2015-February/001624.html
In particular
- Each new release from the stable/X branch deprecates the previous
  release on the branch, providing a three-month window within which
  consumers are urged to upgrade to the latest release.  During this
  three-month window, Security Advisories and Errata Notices will still
  be issued for the previous release, as necessary.
Why not simply update to 10.4?

FreeBSD 10.4 reaches end-of-life on October 31, 2018. At this point I’d
recommend an upgrade to 11.1 right now, to get to a supported version
and then an upgrade to 11.2 within three months of the release of 11.2.
There should be very few surprised in the upgrade from 10.3 to 11.1 and
none in the 11.1 to 11.2 upgrade.

There's a working group on release scheduling and support lifetimes
planned for during BSDCan next month. The current thinking is that we
have two quite disparate sets of requirements amoungst the user base:
people that need a long-term stable system for around a 5 year support
lifetime -- so only security patches and fixes for major regressions --
plus people that basically want to run something close to the bleeding
edge with support for all the latest hardware and performance and other
code improvements, which means a new release every few months.

Cheers,

Matthew

[Robroy Gregg]

Post by Arthur Chance

Post by Arthur Chance

Post by Manish Jain
Hi,
I have no idea whether this is the right list to make this request to.
But I could not find any other list that would definitely be better suited.
I noticed when trying to build a port under my 10.3 box that support for
10.3 has now expired. I have no problems with that - I will install 12
afresh when it becomes available later this year.
But since installing afresh demands a whole effort, I request that
FreeBSD reduce its new releases to one per year, while the support
period is increased to 3 years per release.
Does this sound like a good request to others too ?

https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-announce/2015-February/001624.html

Post by Arthur Chance
In particular
- Each new release from the stable/X branch deprecates the previous
release on the branch, providing a three-month window within which
consumers are urged to upgrade to the latest release. During this
three-month window, Security Advisories and Errata Notices will still
be issued for the previous release, as necessary.
Why not simply update to 10.4?

FreeBSD 10.4 reaches end-of-life on October 31, 2018. At this point
I?d recommend an upgrade to 11.1 right now, to get to a supported
version and then an upgrade to 11.2 within three months of the release
of 11.2.

I wonder how many other people are like me--planning to "float" from
10.3-RELEASE to 11.2-RELEASE on some computers, just to face the devil
once instead of twice (the devil to which I refer's the one who's "in the
details" every time I change anything on a server).

[Manish Jain]

Post by Robroy Gregg

Post by Arthur Chance

Post by Arthur Chance

Post by Manish Jain
Hi,
I have no idea whether this is the right list to make this request to.
But I could not find any other list that would definitely be better suited.
I noticed when trying to build a port under my 10.3 box that support for
10.3 has now expired. I have no problems with that - I will install 12
afresh when it becomes available later this year.
But since installing afresh demands a whole effort, I request that
FreeBSD reduce its new releases to one per year, while the support
period is increased to 3 years per release.
Does this sound like a good request to others too ?

https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-announce/2015-February/001624.html

Post by Arthur Chance
In particular
- Each new release from the stable/X branch deprecates the previous
  release on the branch, providing a three-month window within which
  consumers are urged to upgrade to the latest release.  During this
  three-month window, Security Advisories and Errata Notices will still
  be issued for the previous release, as necessary.
Why not simply update to 10.4?

FreeBSD 10.4 reaches end-of-life on October 31, 2018. At this point
I?d recommend an upgrade to 11.1 right now, to get to a supported
version and then an upgrade to 11.2 within three months of the release
of 11.2.

I wonder how many other people are like me--planning to "float" from
10.3-RELEASE to 11.2-RELEASE on some computers, just to face the devil
once instead of twice (the devil to which I refer's the one who's "in
the details" every time I change anything on a server).

There is one point on which I request expert advice.

Since bumping the version up using freebsd-update needs you to install
all packages afresh, it would appear to my naked eye that it never makes
sense to upgrade. Instead, one should simply wait till one's release
version goes beyond EOL - and then install the latest available release
afresh. This is just what I plan on this box (10.3) - wait till
November, and then install 12 over the current installation.

Exactly when does the upgrade via freebsd-update bring any real
advantage to the user ? I see one disadvantage in upgrading - things
don't work as smoothly/reliably as with a fresh installation.

[Arthur Chance]

Post by Manish Jain

Post by Robroy Gregg

Post by Arthur Chance

Post by Arthur Chance

Post by Manish Jain
Hi,
I have no idea whether this is the right list to make this request to.
But I could not find any other list that would definitely be better suited.
I noticed when trying to build a port under my 10.3 box that support for
10.3 has now expired. I have no problems with that - I will install 12
afresh when it becomes available later this year.
But since installing afresh demands a whole effort, I request that
FreeBSD reduce its new releases to one per year, while the support
period is increased to 3 years per release.
Does this sound like a good request to others too ?

https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-announce/2015-February/001624.html

Post by Arthur Chance
In particular
- Each new release from the stable/X branch deprecates the previous
  release on the branch, providing a three-month window within which
  consumers are urged to upgrade to the latest release.  During this
  three-month window, Security Advisories and Errata Notices will still
  be issued for the previous release, as necessary.
Why not simply update to 10.4?

FreeBSD 10.4 reaches end-of-life on October 31, 2018. At this point
I?d recommend an upgrade to 11.1 right now, to get to a supported
version and then an upgrade to 11.2 within three months of the
release of 11.2.

I wonder how many other people are like me--planning to "float" from
10.3-RELEASE to 11.2-RELEASE on some computers, just to face the devil
once instead of twice (the devil to which I refer's the one who's "in
the details" every time I change anything on a server).

There is one point on which I request expert advice.
Since bumping the version up using freebsd-update needs you to install
all packages afresh, it would appear to my naked eye that it never makes
sense to upgrade. Instead, one should simply wait till one's release
version goes beyond EOL - and then install the latest available release
afresh. This is just what I plan on this box (10.3) - wait till
November, and then install 12 over the current installation.
Exactly when does the upgrade via freebsd-update bring any real
advantage to the user ? I see one disadvantage in upgrading - things
don't work as smoothly/reliably as with a fresh installation.

You only need to reinstall packages when upgrading a major revision.
Updating a minor revision (say from 10.3 to 10.4) does not require
package reinstallation.

[Grouchy Sysadmin]

Post by Manish Jain

Post by Robroy Gregg

Post by Arthur Chance

Post by Arthur Chance

Post by Manish Jain
Hi,
I have no idea whether this is the right list to make this request to.
But I could not find any other list that would definitely be better suited.
I noticed when trying to build a port under my 10.3 box that support for
10.3 has now expired. I have no problems with that - I will install 12
afresh when it becomes available later this year.
But since installing afresh demands a whole effort, I request that
FreeBSD reduce its new releases to one per year, while the support
period is increased to 3 years per release.
Does this sound like a good request to others too ?

https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-announce/2015-February/001624.html

Post by Arthur Chance
In particular
- Each new release from the stable/X branch deprecates the previous
  release on the branch, providing a three-month window within which
  consumers are urged to upgrade to the latest release. During this
  three-month window, Security Advisories and Errata Notices will still
  be issued for the previous release, as necessary.
Why not simply update to 10.4?

FreeBSD 10.4 reaches end-of-life on October 31, 2018. At this point
I?d recommend an upgrade to 11.1 right now, to get to a supported
version and then an upgrade to 11.2 within three months of the
release of 11.2.

I wonder how many other people are like me--planning to "float" from
10.3-RELEASE to 11.2-RELEASE on some computers, just to face the
devil once instead of twice (the devil to which I refer's the one
who's "in the details" every time I change anything on a server).

There is one point on which I request expert advice.
Since bumping the version up using freebsd-update needs you to install
all packages afresh, it would appear to my naked eye that it never
makes sense to upgrade. Instead, one should simply wait till one's
release version goes beyond EOL - and then install the latest
available release afresh. This is just what I plan on this box (10.3)
- wait till November, and then install 12 over the current installation.
Exactly when does the upgrade via freebsd-update bring any real
advantage to the user ? I see one disadvantage in upgrading - things
don't work as smoothly/reliably as with a fresh installation.

I've used freebsd-update to move machines from 9x to 11.1 without
significant issues. Personally, it's a huge improvement and time saver
over the source building method.

Point release upgrades don't require that you rebuild packages. You
could update to 10.4 without needing to install the packages afresh.
Only major version changes like 9x-10x, or 10x-11x require
rebuilding/installing software.

Granted my experience is not going to be the same for everybody, but
freebsd-update works as intended here.

[Doug McIntyre]

Post by Manish Jain
Since bumping the version up using freebsd-update needs you to install
all packages afresh, it would appear to my naked eye that it never makes
sense to upgrade. Instead, one should simply wait till one's release
version goes beyond EOL - and then install the latest available release
afresh. This is just what I plan on this box (10.3) - wait till
November, and then install 12 over the current installation.

Do people not generally use binary pkg's?

pkg upgrade

generally works fine as part of a 10.3->11.1 (or 10.3->11.0) freebsd-update path.
It'll automatically uninstall and reinstall the new ABI version packages for you.

Granted, my scale makes my local poudriere build server nice, but I
don't have that many customizations to my source builds that stock
binary builds would work for 98% of my package set.

I couldn't imagine rebuilding kernel/packages from ports source as
part of every upgrade cycle. My primary home server works just fine
with binary updates, binary pkg updates on everything I do there.

[Manish Jain]

Post by Doug McIntyre
generally works fine as part of a 10.3->11.1 (or 10.3->11.0) freebsd-update path.
It'll automatically uninstall and reinstall the new ABI version packages for you.

Hi Doug,

I will keep this in mind as a nice tip.

I just upgraded 10.3 -> 10.4

Everything is working smoothly.

I will experiment upgrading to 11 around the time 12 comes out. If 'pkg
upgrade' gets my packages working with 11's ABI, that shall be cool.
Else I shall just install 12 afresh.

So your notes create an alternative for me. Thanks a lot.

[Steve O'Hara-Smith]

On Fri, 11 May 2018 20:10:14 +0530

Post by Manish Jain
Since bumping the version up using freebsd-update needs you to install
all packages afresh, it would appear to my naked eye that it never makes
sense to upgrade.

Doing that is quite a quick operation if you have a good connection
and a list of leaf packages to work from.

Post by Manish Jain
Exactly when does the upgrade via freebsd-update bring any real
advantage to the user ? I see one disadvantage in upgrading - things
don't work as smoothly/reliably as with a fresh installation.

Even on major version bumps there's a whole bunch of configuration
(system and ports) which can (usually - read UPDATING) be left untouched
with freebsd-update but which has to be recreated or restoed from some kind
of archive on a fresh installation.

Minor version bumps and patch level increments are (usually)
painless with freebsd-update, the latter often not even requiring a reboot
just run service -R.